--- Log opened Wed Jan 04 10:01:28 2006 10:01 -!- xiphlog [n=giles@westfish.xiph.osuosl.org] has joined #xiphmeet 10:01 -!- Topic for #xiphmeet: Next xiph.org monthly meeting 2006 Jan 4 18h00 GMT | agenda at http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200601 10:01 -!- Topic set by rillian [] [Sat Dec 17 14:29:19 2005] 10:01 [Users #xiphmeet] 10:01 [ Arc ] [ ginger ] [ illi ] [ jmworx] [ rillian] [ xiphlog] 10:01 [ derf_] [ HackRip] [ jmspeex] [ MikeS ] [ tris ] 10:01 -!- Irssi: #xiphmeet: Total of 11 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 11 normal] 10:01 -!- Channel #xiphmeet created Sat Dec 17 03:46:31 2005 10:01 -!- Irssi: Join to #xiphmeet was synced in 0 secs 10:01 -!- [freenode-info] if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg 10:01 < MikeS> ginger: no. Don't know if the phones do video encoding at all... maybe next-gen. I haven't looked at it 10:02 < illi> smartphones do 10:02 < ginger> so is it curtado running on the phone then? 10:02 < rillian> I have a schedule conflict and can't really participate, but will follow along 10:02 < MikeS> ginger: no. none of our software on the phone, just the builtin stuff. 10:02 -!- rillian changed the topic of #xiphmeet to: Next xiph.org monthly meeting 2006 Jan 4 18h00 GMT | agenda at http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200601 | live log at http://westfish.xiph.org/~giles/200601_meeting.txt 10:02 < ginger> built-in theora? 10:02 < MikeS> ginger: no 10:03 < MikeS> anyway, we have a meeting to run here. 10:03 < ginger> sorry 10:03 < MikeS> And idea what's on the agenda? 10:03 -!- myidiym [n=myidiym@24-48-253-242.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #xiphmeet 10:04 < rillian> MikeS: http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MonthlyMeeting200601 10:04 < HackRip> do you ever planned adding vfw encoding in your directshow filter later, it seems ffdshow theora support seems a bit random ... 10:04 < MikeS> ok, well, I'll start the meeting off, but have to leave in a few minutes (sorry), hopefully someone esle will take over 10:04 < MikeS> 1) Project reports. 10:05 < illi> HackRip: I'd like to, it's not really high priority though 10:05 < MikeS> Icecast: nothing new apart from a libshout release (with speex support). 10:05 < HackRip> ok np 10:05 -!- sxpert [n=sxpert@navsys.org] has joined #xiphmeet 10:06 < MikeS> Actually, I don't know what projects have any interesting news to report. 10:06 < illi> I have some... 10:06 < MikeS> Anyone? 10:06 < MikeS> go ahead, illi 10:07 < illi> there will be a new release of oggcodecs before the end of the month, with the new seeking and demux stuff, and the finally fixed theora keyframe artefacts, several bugfixes and updates to all the six month old base libraries... that's all 10:07 < MikeS> One thing from me before I leave: the agenda has someone asking about multichannel stuff (apparently wav has channel mapping stuff that differs from vorbis); I said I'd try to merge the patches for that into oggenc and oggdec, but I haven't done so yet. 10:08 < MikeS> It also asks about merging the poorly named 'oggenc2' to oggenc: selected features might be, but most of them won't, as they add support for proprietary codecs, etc. 10:08 < MikeS> illi: good news. 10:08 < sxpert> illi: keyframe artefacts?? 10:08 < illi> yes... finally get it moving forward again! 10:09 < MikeS> illi: want to take over running the meeting? 10:09 < MikeS> Sorry, have to run. Will read logs tomorrow. 10:09 < illi> sxpert: It never used to seek to keyframes, so it would have random artefacts until the next keyframe 10:09 < illi> i guess... is there anyone left though? 10:09 < ginger> news from jmspeex: 10:09 < sxpert> illi: ah, right 10:09 < ginger> Speex status is that I'm currently on (nearly finished) a contract with Analog Devices to port the echo canceller to fixed-point. 10:09 < ginger> I've also worked a bit with Monty on using the Vorbis psycho-acoustic model in Speex. After a bit of ugly tweaking, it seems promising (PESQ seems to say ~20% saving in bit-rate for the same quality) and we've submitted an abstract for the next AES convention. 10:09 < ginger> Other than that, I've also submitted two other papers about Speex. One about Speex in general for linux.conf.au (jan 2006) that got accepted. The other is about the Speex echo canceller algo to an IEEE Journal (TrSAP). 10:10 < ginger> news from Annodex: 10:11 -!- dolphy [n=dolphy@polar.es6.egwn.net] has joined #xiphmeet 10:11 < ginger> we have created a froundation (see annodex.org) and have a founding committee elected 10:11 < sxpert> any plans for subtitle and 5.1 support ? 10:11 < ginger> it will be heaps easier now to do a joint press release on things 10:12 < sxpert> (or are the the questions-that-should-not-be-asked ? 10:12 < illi> still going ginger? 10:12 < derf_> I have some minor Theora news, as well. 10:12 < ginger> nah, too tired for details 10:13 < illi> ok 10:13 < derf_> I updated the Theora IDCT spec so that it can be implemented in 16-bit registers. 10:13 < derf_> It only affects the handling of overflow, which was done inconsistently in the old VP3 codebase between the MMX and C versions. 10:14 < illi> derf_: anything else ? 10:14 < derf_> That was it. 10:15 < illi> cool... i'm not sure what to do about the other agenda items... 10:15 < illi> the speex.org status item, need atamido (it think)? 10:15 < ginger> should we answer sxpert's q? 10:15 < illi> at least i don't think there are any of the web people here? 10:15 < illi> i guess 10:16 < derf_> Do we know the answers? 10:16 < illi> i'm not sure what the answer is though... besides... yes it's planned, no it's not done yet 10:16 < ginger> sxpert were you asking for subtitle support in theora? 10:16 < ginger> or in oggcodecs? 10:17 < illi> or in annodex? 10:17 < ginger> :) 10:17 < derf_> My understanding was that annodex's CMML already supports subtitles. 10:17 < sxpert> ginger: being able to have the .fr (for example) subs on .jp only anime for instance 10:17 < sxpert> integrating the subs in the stream 10:17 < sxpert> so that there's only one file 10:18 < sxpert> instead of having a .ogg and a .srt 10:18 < ginger> CMML is ready for it, but nobody has tested this feature or extended the tools to display this sort of thing 10:18 < illi> derf_: Well it can put the data into the cmml in the annodex file, but not sure which players will display it, except the really rough attempt i made to render the text over the video, which is currently disabled 10:18 < ginger> it's on the list of todos though 10:18 < derf_> CMML may also be a little heavyweight of a tool for the job. 10:19 < derf_> sxpert: Arc wrote an OggWrit specification for simple subtitles. I'm not sure what the status of any implementation is. I don't believe it is yet production-ready. 10:20 < sxpert> ok 10:20 < sxpert> what about 5.1 support in vorbis ? 10:20 < ginger> hmm, not really: when you want e.g. several alternative .srt files stored with a video, it's actually a lightweight solution 10:20 < sxpert> (or n.m for that matter) 10:20 < derf_> rillian has poked around some with MNG-in-Ogg for more complex overlay effects, but I don't think he's gotten very far with it. 10:20 < illi> i'm not sure any vorbis people are still here? 10:21 < illi> for some reason i thought vorbis already could do 5.1? 10:21 < derf_> sxpert: Vorbis supports up to 255 channels. I was under the impression that there was a channel mapping defined for 5.1. 10:21 < sxpert> ah, ok 10:21 < sxpert> so it's a tool issue 10:21 < illi> very likely sxpert 10:21 < sxpert> ok 10:21 * sxpert crawls back in his hole 10:21 < illi> i don't think i've tested my tools for 5.1 10:21 < ginger> hey, you got the speakers now, mate! 10:22 < illi> yes... that's why i bought them *cough* 10:22 * sxpert starts prodding the gstreamer people ;D 10:22 < illi> ok the other item is about aoTuV 10:22 < derf_> Ticket #736 seems to indicate that oggenc currently does not handle the 5.1 mapping correctly. 10:22 < sxpert> oh, btw, seems ogginfo doensn't know about theora 10:23 < illi> MikeS i think is the person to talk to about ogginfo 10:23 < illi> i'm sure he'd welcome a patch :)) 10:23 < derf_> sxpert: Are you sure you have a recent enough version? AFAIK, it does know about Theora. 10:23 < sxpert> derf_: ah... I have 1.0 10:24 < illi> i don't think we can really do the aoTuV item without Monty? 10:24 < derf_> But, I don't think the monthly meeting is for user-level tech support. 10:24 < ginger> definate no 10:25 < illi> ginger: Was that @me or @derf_ ? 10:25 < derf_> Well, we should of course mention that a number of the aoTuV modifications have already been merged into the mainline encoder. 10:25 < ginger> support for derf_ 10:25 < illi> ok 10:26 < illi> i know some has been in the past... i think this relates to a more recent version? 10:26 < derf_> I believe everything up through his beta2 has been merged. 10:27 < derf_> The more recent stuff has not been, to my knowledge. 10:27 < derf_> I understand there were some regressions on low-bitrate samples that needed to be worked out, but that was months ago. 10:27 < illi> ok... 10:27 < illi> ok... the other item is discuss skeleton... ginger: Do you want to do that today, or wait until next month when there are more than 3 people to discuss! 10:28 < derf_> (I'm also operating on months-old memory, so someone might want to check those facts) 10:28 < derf_> Since I'm the one who added it to the agenda, and the two of you are part of Annodex, it seems less than useful. 10:28 < ginger> skeleton - putting this on the agenda was from a discussion with j^ that we had more than a month ago 10:29 < ginger> ups, derf_ then :) 10:29 < ginger> sorry, derf_, bad memory 10:29 < illi> yeah... that's what i figured... 10:29 < derf_> ginger: I just disclaimed any accuracy of my own memory. I certainly won't fault you for yours. 10:30 < illi> there is one other issue... the spam on wiki/trac 10:30 < ginger> thanks :) 10:30 < illi> which i don't think we can do either? 10:30 < illi> derf_ Know anything about this? 10:30 < derf_> I know rillian was the most involved in handling it. 10:30 < derf_> I believe some stuff was being done upstream by the Trac people to help. 10:31 < illi> i've seen a few blogs now with the numeric images like gmail uses 10:31 < ginger> I know that jmspeex has helped with spam removal on the wiki a bit, too 10:31 < illi> is this the sort of option ? 10:31 < illi> seeing as it's out amongst a few blogs... there must be some implementation around somewhere that shouldn't be too hard to integrate 10:31 < derf_> illi: I don't know anything about specifics. For the moment, it's just being manually removed. 10:32 < illi> it basically shows an image of distorted letters or numbers next to the save/comment button 10:32 < illi> presumably the distorted characters are easy for people, but hard for automated bots 10:32 < illi> seems like a pretty painless solution 10:33 < derf_> Assuming you aren't being spammed by flesh-and-blood people. 10:33 < illi> yes... that's true... i dunno, i assume that's the minority? 10:33 < illi> Can't be a profitable way to do it 10:34 < illi> anyhow... i don't think there is anything else on the agenda... 10:34 < illi> any random items? 10:34 < myidiym> how does someone start up a new project in Xiph? 10:35 < derf_> myidiym: Ask people about it. 10:35 < illi> what sort of project? 10:35 < myidiym> adoption oriented projects... not technical projects. 10:36 < illi> anything more specific, or just a general idea for now? 10:36 < myidiym> basically, I see how these monthly meetings operate and I see you all make good progress on Xiph technical projects... would like to share that with the adoption side of things 10:36 < myidiym> example: increase adoption on Mac platform for X, Y, and Z specifically 10:37 < derf_> myidiym: The best people to talk to would be rillian or xiphmont. 10:37 < ginger> that first needs the sw to be supported on the Mac (which is happening) 10:37 < myidiym> or develop and execute a plan to up-level some Xiph specs as Industry Standards, etc. 10:37 < ginger> myidiym: what concrete ideas for update work do you have? 10:37 < derf_> AFAIK, Xiph does not have any "official" adoption projects, other than individual efforts made by people like Arc. 10:38 < myidiym> ginger: not sure what you mean by update work 10:38 < myidiym> derf_ AFAIK, you're right 10:38 < ginger> s/update/uptake/ 10:38 < myidiym> but I think we all want to see more uptake 10:38 < ginger> sorry, it's early morning here 10:38 * ginger rubs eyes 10:39 < derf_> There were some discussions about making industry standards with the IEEE, but I believe the amount of the money they wanted for adminstrative overhead was too large to be practical. 10:39 < ginger> Industry Standards: what process do you suggest to follow to make that happen? 10:39 < myidiym> I don't think I have any brilliant ideas myself, but I might be helpful in brainstorming with others to generate some... I'm really wondering if the Monthly Meeting is a place for that or not. 10:40 < ginger> you can do standards with the IETF much more cheaply 10:40 < myidiym> derf: I used to be the guy at IEEE who Xiph was talking to 10:40 < derf_> myidiym: Oh, good. Sorry, I did not recognize you. 10:40 < ginger> ah! interesting! 10:41 < myidiym> I'm not at IEEE anymore, but I'm still "in standards" as they say. I'm just a volunteer in this context looking to help make Xiph more widely accepted. 10:41 < ginger> myidiym: what is your impression about the diffrence between IEEE and other standards bodies and why should you go for which? 10:41 < illi> well i think more focus on uptake/marketing is definately a good thing 10:41 < derf_> myidiym: Coming up with a specific plan is probably not a subject for the Monthy Meetings. 10:42 < myidiym> Xiph is a complicated animal... I've been on the edges of it for a few years and I'm still confused about all that's going on, and where things fit. 10:42 < derf_> But it's certainly something we can discuss in more detail afterwards. 10:42 -!- dolphy [n=dolphy@polar.es6.egwn.net] has quit ["Network down, IP Packets delivered via UPS"] 10:42 < myidiym> ok... I can also just hang out in this chat room from time to time and have ad hoc discussions with folks 10:43 < illi> in #vorbis or #xiph you will normally find people around for this type of chat 10:43 < ginger> myidiym: I would suggest to have discussions with people on irc and email and once you have a concrete plan, come back to this meeting and we'll see what we can do to help (e.g. recommend a wiki page be written...) 10:43 < myidiym> ginger: good question... long answer 10:43 < myidiym> ok 10:43 < illi> but talking to rilliam or xiphmont would also be a good thing 10:43 < illi> rillian even 10:43 < myidiym> yeah, I do that from time to time as well 10:44 < myidiym> and will keep at it more consistently in 2006 10:44 < illi> any other items for discussion? 10:44 < ginger> stick around for after the meeting and we can have the discussion 10:44 < myidiym> ok 10:45 < myidiym> (I have a hard stop in 15 min or so) 10:45 < illi> nothing else? 10:45 < illi> i guess that's meeting over then. 10:45 < ginger> all I can say is: happy new year :) 10:45 < illi> <--------------------------- rillian: Cut here --- Log closed Wed Jan 04 10:45:47 2006