--- Log opened Wed May 05 19:58:21 2004
19:58 -!- xiphmont [~xiphmont@h004005a8a3c2.ne.client2.attbi.com] has joined #xiphmeet
19:59 < rillian> hi monty
19:59 < xiphmont> hihi
19:59 -!- rillian changed the topic of #xiphmeet to: Xiph.org meeting and discussion channel. MonthlyMeeting in progress. Agenda at http://wiki.xiph.org/MonthlyMeeting200405. Live log at http://xiph.org/~giles/xiphmeet.log for those joining us late.
20:00 < rillian> shall we begin?
20:00 < rillian> First, thanks everyone for coming
20:00 < rillian> News and organizational efforts first:
20:00 < rillian> we've joined the Linux Audio Consortium
20:00 < rillian> (linuxaudio.org)
20:01 < rillian> they invited us
20:01 < rillian> and it seems like a good forum to meet implementers
20:01 < rillian> Monty has agreed to represent us there
20:01  * xiphmont waves
20:01 < rillian> that's brand new
20:02 < rillian> so nothing's actually happened yet
20:02 < rillian> but hopefully it will help with the liason part we're not so good at :)
20:02 < rillian> Next item is ISTO work
20:02 < rillian> xiphmont: you want to report on that?
20:03 < xiphmont> I am stalled right now; despite repeatedly repinging after a promising initial contact, Nat Friedman hasn't responded.
20:03 < xiphmont> I will ping again tonight.
20:03 < xiphmont> I don;t expect it's anything problematic.
20:03 < xiphmont> He started out as very positive in the first email exchange; fo all I know, something came up.
20:03 < rillian> I also contacted havoc briefly about getting something like a policy statement from Gnome and freedesktop
20:03 < xiphmont> and he's been away.
20:04 < rillian> but I need to get back to him about what we can do there
20:04 < xiphmont> right; I was hoping to meet with Nat before talking to Havoc, but clearly we can't stall on it.
20:04 < rillian> Next bit
20:04 < xiphmont> I hadn't come up with 'what to do when enthusiastic people just disappear' :-)
20:04 < thomasvs> can I get a pointer to that ?
20:04 -!- jmspeex [~jmspeex@modemcable208.224-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #xiphmeet
20:04 < thomasvs> I might be able to poke Nat a bit
20:04 < jmspeex> hi guys
20:04 < rillian> I'm sure you've all noticed motherfish has been down a lot lately
20:05 < rillian> welcome jean-marc
20:05 < xiphmont> Thanks.  Be friendly, it hasn't been a problem.  We just don't want to stall momentum which started out vstrong.
20:05 < xiphmont> (that was to thomasvs)
20:05 < volsung> Quick q: What does ISTO have to do with Gnome/Freedesktop?
20:05 < xiphmont> Nothing directly.
20:05 < volsung> Maybe I forgot what ISTO was.  :)
20:05 < rillian> isto sets up industry forums
20:05 < xiphmont> However, the ISTO thing is unlikely to suceed if there's no industry support for it.
20:05 < thomasvs> xiphmont: well, maybe i should look at a pointer what the discussion is about before I ping him :)
20:05 < rillian> which we thought might be a useful model for funding development an getting buy in
20:06 < rillian> looks like we won't get buy in unless we get chosen as 'essential for the linux desktop'
20:06 < xiphmont> thomasvs: talking about what interest Ximian/GF/Novell have in Ogg and an Ogg Forum.
20:06 < rillian> so we've been trying to talk to people who can make that so :)
20:06 < volsung> Ah, okay.  Makes sense now.
20:06 < thomasvs> ok, I'm following.
20:07 < xiphmont> ...and if we really have no industry support...
20:07 < xiphmont> ...we should probably just go home at this point ;-)
20:07 < thomasvs> eek.  we as a very small part of industry support xiph.
20:07 < xiphmont> [we have industry support, it seems, we've just generally never asked for much]
20:07 < thomasvs> (ie, don't go home just yet)
20:07 < xiphmont> We're not good at it, and the industry doesn't know we need it.
20:07 < rillian> thomasvs: yep. and we appreciate it very much
20:08 < rillian> that it for isto?
20:08 < thomasvs> xiphmont: at the next guadec I'll be directly speaking to some people on these very issues, including Red Hat and Novell
20:08 -!- DanielWH [~DanielWH@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:262b] has joined #xiphmeet
20:08 < xiphmont> rillian: on my end yes.  I'm sorry to be stalled.
20:09 < rillian> thomasvs: good :) you contacts would be really valuable for this
20:09 < xiphmont> thomasvs: thanks; that will be appreciated.  And we want to make sure we're asking from within a clear and reconizable structure.
20:09 < xiphmont> Warm fuzzies and all that.
20:10 < rillian> ok, onward
20:10 < rillian> we suspect part of the problem with our server is just flakey hardware
20:10 < rillian> and we were intending to install more disk anyway
20:10 < rillian> so I've purchased a replacement box
20:10 < xiphmont> it is the last functional member of a batch of rackmount servers that all fried.
20:11 < jmspeex> rillian: What did you end up buying?
20:11 < rillian> 2U dual athlon 2600
20:11 < rillian> nothing special, but it will be much more machine than we have now
20:12 < rillian> should arrive at the colo in 10-14 days
20:12 < xiphmont> An additional thing to mention re colo
20:12 < rillian> hopefully this will solve our reliablility problems
20:12 < xiphmont> Motherfish (be it II or III) is to be moved into a 'more carefully tended' datacenter by its keeper.
20:13 < xiphmont> This gives us the added advantage that we will have an extra 2U of rackspace for a network power switch.
20:13 < xiphmont> No firm timetable on that.
20:13 < xiphmont> but "soon"
20:13 < rillian> xiphmont: ah, thanks. that's good to know
20:14 < rillian> btw, jack already has a network power switch, so this is not a new purchase
20:14 < xiphmont> right, forgot to mention that.
20:14 < rillian> also, I think the recent downtime should inspire us to be better at offsite backups
20:14 < rillian> and perhaps get a mirror going
20:14 < rillian> I can put something on my dsl when my server box arrives from england in a week or two
20:14 < xiphmont> at a bare minimum, good backups of SVN and mail archives.
20:15 < rillian> volsung has also graciously offered to maintain backups on his home machine
20:15 < jmspeex> I've got friends at the Sherbrooke LUG, maybe they can provide mirroring (they're on the university network)
20:15 < xiphmont> The good news is that SVN + archives is small.
20:15 < rillian> jmspeex: that would be cool
20:15 < xiphmont> <50M
20:15 < xiphmont> oops, actually, CVS+archives was < 50M.  Not sure about SVN
20:15 < rillian> yes, keeping the websites in svn would also make mirroring very easy
20:16 < jmspeex> rillian: If I give you the address of the guy, can you give him the details of what we need?
20:16 < rillian> jmspeex: yes
20:16 < jmspeex> yannick.brosseau@usherbrooke.ca
20:16 < rillian> finally, at monty's suggestion/request, I'm going to be installing dspam
20:16 < rillian> hopefully this will help with spam on personal accounts
20:16 < xiphmont> A quick summary:
20:17 < rillian> as well as cut out the few viruses that are making it past the current TMDA filter on the lists
20:17 -!- kjoonlee [~foo@218.147.118.240] has joined #xiphmeet
20:17 < xiphmont> dspam is a hybrid bayesian spam filter.
20:17 < rillian> hello kjoonlee
20:17 < kjoonlee> hi :)
20:17 < xiphmont> Among other things it has to be trained; the details in setup will have to do with the training aspect.
20:17 < xiphmont> I had envisioned a common spam db for the lists, and an opt-in to personal training for each MF user.
20:18 < rillian> that sounds appropriate
20:18 < xiphmont> Apparently newest postfix *finally* passes on "IP of connecting client' information.
20:18 < xiphmont> That also means that greylist/whitelist software once again has a chance of working
20:18 < xiphmont> (will no longer be fooled by forged spam)
20:19 < xiphmont> I leave details of impleemntation up to Ralph's discretion since he's the unfortunate soul who has to weild the duct tape.
20:19 < rillian> :)
20:19 < xiphmont> [a round of somber applause for Ralph]
20:19 < rillian> ok, that's all I had to say about the upgrades
20:19  * kfish puts on a parliament cd: party on the motherfish!
20:20 < rillian> shall we move on the project status reports?
20:20 < rillian> unfortunately not much is new with theora
20:20 < rillian> since the last meeting
20:20 < rillian> we have about 40 pages of spec written
20:20 < rillian> (out of at least 100)
20:20 < rillian> derf's been busy with school
20:20 < rillian> and I've been busy with my new daughter
20:21 < rillian> we should both have time for another spurt in the next week.
20:21 < rillian> thomasvs: did you want to talk about the gstreamer stuff?
20:22 < Arc> rillian: are you still expecting to have Beta-1 out by the end of the month?
20:22 < rillian> Arc: we're still trying for as soon as we can
20:22 < rillian> we missed the end of april target, obviously
20:23 < thomasvs> rillian: well, just wondering how theora is going right now
20:23 < Arc> for Beta-4? yea I realise, just wondering how much it's getting pushed back by
20:23 < thomasvs> rillian: our guy is going full speed ahead on making sure encoding/muxing works
20:23 < rillian> thomasvs: we're not planning on changing the bitstream format again
20:23 < thomasvs> rillian: our goal is still to stream guadec in ogg/theora
20:23 < rillian> when's guadec again?
20:23 < thomasvs> rillian: so we hope to have beta1 relatively before guadec
20:23 < thomasvs> 28-30 of june
20:24 < thomasvs> (as a technical aside, there shouldn't be any problem delivering ogg/theora over http right ?)
20:24 < rillian> my goal was 6 June, so there we go
20:24 < xiphmont> no problems.
20:24 < kfish> thomasvs, it works fine :)
20:24 < rillian> (no there's not. karl has some experimental icecast code, even)
20:25 < rillian> the only thing not set is the multiplex spec. we'll address that in a bit
20:25 < thomasvs> ok - I expect our team to bombard rillian more in the next month :)
20:25 < rillian> jmspeex: how's speex? you're looking for help?
20:25 < Arc> thomasvs: both mplayer and xine can receive Ogg Theora over HTTP and stream it, tho AFAIK both need some TLC in this
20:25 < jmspeex> I'm looking for help regarding anything Win32-related and for tracking all the plugins and stuff - what works, what not, ...
20:26 < thomasvs> Arc: great - will test with our streamer
20:26 < jmspeex> Right now, it's a mess
20:27 < kfish> jmspeex, can you describe the problems within libspeex?
20:28 -!- Misirlou [~asdf@c-24-125-118-27.va.client2.attbi.com] has joined #xiphmeet
20:28 < jmspeex> kfish: what problems within libspeex?
20:28 < kfish> jmspeex, the ones you're concerned about regarding Win32 :)
20:29 < jmspeex> Oh, I'm not worried about libspeex, but all the stuff that uses it.
20:29 < jmspeex> I have no ideas of what plugins are available and which ones work. 
20:29 < jmspeex> Also, the win32 project is constantly out of date and we have win32 compiles once in a while
20:29 < rillian> it's a pity illiminable isn't here
20:29 < rillian> he does have a working directshow plugin
20:30 < jmspeex> that's nice.
20:30 < rillian> http://svn.xiph.org/trunk/oggdsf/
20:30 < jmspeex> (I think the one that's linked on the page is broken - never tried it)
20:30 < rillian> we're hoping his can become official versions
20:30 < rillian> so you might check with him about things
20:31 < jmspeex> sure. I wan't even aware the project existed.
20:31 < rillian> it's quite new
20:31 < volsung> He appeared rather suddenly.  :)
20:31 < rillian> we can thank kfish for getting the ball rolling, at least indirectly :)
20:32 < kfish> http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/
20:32 < rillian> Ok, so that's another announcement :)
20:32 < rillian> illiminable/Zen has joined us officially to work on directshow plugins
20:32 < rillian> see the above website, and code in svn
20:32 < rillian> they're still very much in flux
20:33 < jmspeex> Anyway, the thing is that it would be nice if someone actually using windows (if such person exist around here) would take care of some of the Speex stuff.
20:33 < rillian> but the aim is basically to support everything well
20:33 < volsung> Vorbis, Speex, FLAC and Theora, right?
20:33 < rillian> volsung: right
20:33 < rillian> do we have any volunteers to help jm there?
20:34 < rillian> or friends you can rope in?
20:34 < rillian> jmspeex: I'd suggest working with illiminable and/or conrad if they're interested
20:34 < rillian> fishsound works on win32
20:35 < rillian> ok. looks like no icecast people can make it
20:35 < jmspeex> I'll contact illiminable about DS anyway.
20:35 < rillian> volsung: anything new with your projects?
20:36 < rillian> segher pointed out some new vorbis-tools po files I need to commit
20:36 < volsung> rillian: Not much.  Been trying to pass Statistical Mechanics.
20:36 < volsung> :)
20:36 < rillian> :)
20:36 < thomasvs> re: po files, are you guys affiliated with the translation project ?
20:36 -!- MikeS [~msmith@CPE-144-137-40-253.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined #xiphmeet
20:36 < volsung> Not me.
20:36 < volsung> Segher appears occassionally and tells us to commit stuff.
20:37 < rillian> thomasvs: segher's been handling this, but he lost track of his write access a year or two ago
20:37 < xiphmont> Which reminds me, I just found a segher hit-and-commit bug from 2000 or so....
20:37 < MikeS> (sorry I'm late - work stuff)
20:38 < rillian> hi MikeS!
20:38 < jmspeex> hi
20:38 < rillian> just in time to tell us about icecast
20:38 < thomasvs> well, the translation project is working out very well for us; if you're not using it yet, maybe look into it
20:39 < MikeS> ok.
20:39 -!- wasabi [~wasabi@c-24-0-141-85.client.comcast.net] has joined #xiphmeet
20:40 -!- apwbd_ [~seth@wbar8.dal1-4-13-107-071.dsl-verizon.net] has joined #xiphmeet
20:40 < MikeS> icecast: things are generally going well, we've (finally) got a burst-on-connect implementation in there, as well as proper listener-authentication. 
20:40  * rillian cheers
20:41 < MikeS> We've been having some discussions as to what to do with karl heyes' fork (which fixes up some things - so we want to merge those, and adds some things - some of which we'd like to add, and rewrites large swathes of code - for no obvious reason, so we don't want that). 
20:42 < MikeS> That's problematic, since karl is uninterested in doing partial merges, and he's the only one who knows his code at all. So... not sure what we're going to do there.
20:43 < rillian> :(
20:43 < rillian> are the specific goals for 2.1?
20:43 < rillian> there
20:43 < MikeS> oddsock also wants a debate over turning burst-on-connect on by default (currently, it's off: this offers behaviour like the 2.0 release by default. Turning it on is helpful for common (but not very smart) clients like winamp, _but_ drastically increases minimum latency (by a factor of - not precisely measured - at least 4)
20:44 < rillian> I'm not sure minimum latency is all that important in broadcast
20:45 < rillian> though can't you just ramp up the burst size after source connect?
20:45 < MikeS> I don't believe so. Probably worth discussing at some point. I think probably "give it another couple of months for new features, then stabilise" would be a good plan
20:45 < rillian> too bad about the timescale
20:45 < MikeS> rillian: it's important for some people. There are quite a lot of people trying to do talkback-radio style things with icecast - and you can tolerate a small amount of latency there, but not 5+ seconds.
20:46 < MikeS> How does ramping up the burst size help?
20:46 < rillian> in particular, we of course want theora support immediately after theora beta :)
20:46 < rillian> MikeS: I see. no, it doesn't help with that
20:47 < MikeS> Yes, I think multiple ogg codec support is probably a good threshold feature for 2.1 - perhaps we should aim to stabilise for 2.1 immediately after that gets done? Not sure when I'll have time though - got a lot on my plate at the moment.
20:47 < rillian> MikeS: understood
20:47 < rillian> that sounds like a good plan to me too
20:47 < rillian> and doing icecast support has been on my list for a while
20:48 < rillian> We should move on in the interests of time
20:48 < rillian> I think that's everyone but monty
20:48 < MikeS> yes, I have nothing further to say at this point.
20:48 < rillian> who will be writing OggFile this month dammit
20:48 < xiphmont> hi
20:48 < rillian> xiphmont: what's on your plate?
20:48 < xiphmont> Hold on, failing to parse
20:48 < xiphmont> grammar
20:48 < xiphmont> split
20:48 < xiphmont> over
20:48 < xiphmont> sixteen
20:48 < xiphmont> lines...
20:49 < xiphmont> OK, ready :-)
20:49 < xiphmont> So, jack has reappeared
20:49 < xiphmont> [wild applause]
20:49 < xiphmont> and informed me that I am to put down the Postfish and get Back To Work.  Namely, OggFile with first-cut functionality.... June 1st.
20:49 < xiphmont> That's aggressive.
20:49 < xiphmont> But doable with focus.
20:50 < rillian> please do
20:50 < xiphmont> I'm back from vacation and feeling very good about having Jack back, and I am launching into Oggfile.
20:50 < Misirlou> Since adiabatic isn't here, I will throw in a "Huzzah!"
20:50 < xiphmont> Immediately, there are two things:
20:50 < xiphmont> Jack suggested a meeting this weekend to Talk About Mux.
20:51 < xiphmont> I'm busy Sat night but otherwise wide open on time.
20:51 < rillian> yes, that's next agenda item
20:51 < xiphmont> The second thing, or rather the first, is that I will have a complete document for folks to read before and refer to during the meeting.
20:51 < rillian> xiphmont: excellent
20:51 < rillian> so, granulepos meeting
20:52 < rillian> jack suggested we get together on irc this weekend
20:52 < xiphmont> Make sure that Conrad and the other liboggz/libfishsound and the gstreamer folks are invited.
20:52 < rillian> and figure out what we *really* want to do
20:52 < xiphmont> And acolwell, and so on...
20:52 < rillian> so jack, monty and I are a minimum
20:52 < rillian> but we're really like kfish, acolwell, derf, and whoever else
20:52 < rillian> to join us
20:52 < rillian> scheduling will be hell I imagine
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20:52 < rillian> kfish: are you free at all this weekend?
20:53 < jmspeex> Not sure if I'll be available this weekend
20:53 < kfish> rillian, sure, I don't sleep anyway :)
20:53 < rillian> I'm busy 9-7 (pacific) both days
20:53 < Arc> I'll be there whenever, just say when.
20:54 < rillian> kfish: ok, good. that simplifies
20:54 < rillian> MikeS: interested at all?
20:54 < rillian> jmspeex: ok. too bad. didn't know you were interested in the mux stuff.
20:55 < jmspeex> Well, as far as it affects Speex, right?
20:55 < xiphmont> It doesn't really affect anything standalone... only mixing stream types.
20:55 < jmspeex> (i.e. if granulepos changes - is that what we're talking about?)
20:55 < xiphmont> Nothing that currently exists will break.
20:55 < Arc> not to break topic too far, but has there been a resolution on what should happen with speex/flac? should it change or not?
20:56 < xiphmont> Arc: later. :-)
20:56 < MikeS> rillian: yes, if I can make it
20:56 < jmspeex> seeking in non-mux stuff will keep working?
20:56 < rillian> ok. I'll try and coordinate via email with illiminable and aaron
20:56 < xiphmont> yes
20:56 < rillian> and pick some times
20:56 -!- Arawn [zgsqsffnd@user-37ka4gj.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #xiphmeet
20:56 < xiphmont> I'd personally consider Aaron a must-have as well.
20:56 < Arawn> evening gents
20:56 < rillian> xiphmont: ok
20:57 < Misirlou> If we don't already, I think we should advertise these meetings on the mailing list(s).
20:57 < rillian> thomasvs: you're welcome to join us too, or send your mux person
20:57 < rillian> Misirlou: fair enough. it's easy to forget
20:57 < thomasvs> rillian: what's that in 0-timezone time ?
20:57 < rillian> thomasvs: we don't have a time yet
20:57 < thomasvs> rillian: ok, send out a mail
20:58 < thomasvs> our mux guy doesn't have internet at home yet, but we'll see what we can do :)
20:58 < rillian> ah
20:58 < jmspeex> Misirlou: That's a good job for a crontab
20:58 < rillian> it will be very early for one group of us
20:58 < rillian> Ok. next item is also from jack
20:58 < xiphmont> if he can't attend, we can have a side-email conversation with.  I want to minimize how long the flamefest will go on in email post meeting is all, since in IRC at least it will be shorter than a month-long fets on the lists.
20:59 < xiphmont> Wait
20:59 < xiphmont> I'm not done! :-)
20:59 < rillian> xiphmont has the floow
20:59 < rillian> floor
20:59 < xiphmont> I know that most of you regard Postfish as 'that fucking application that kept me distracted from working on Ogg' and that it is...
20:59 < xiphmont> And jack has requested I put it down, which I am doing.
21:00 < xiphmont> Regardless, it's close to a first release and I will wibble on it a little here and there as I need it personally.
21:00 < xiphmont> And it is a worhtwhile Xiph project, just not Ogg related.  Anyway, it's nearly done :-)
21:01 < xiphmont> There are people who care, even if the rest of you want to see it burned, stoned, and tossed off a cliff :-)
21:01 < xiphmont> There, done :-)
21:01 < rillian> i think postfish is great. and of course you should do fun things too. it's just that organizationally we have higher priorities
21:01 < xiphmont> We do indeed.
21:01 < rillian> So, coming back into things
21:01 < xiphmont> It turned out to be Alot Harder Than Expected.
21:01  * kfish proposes a toast to the side projects that keep us all motivated and alive
21:01 < rillian> here here!
21:02 < jmspeex> I guess in my case, the side project is Speex itself :)
21:02 < rillian> Coming back into things, jack was stuck by how poor our client support is
21:02 < rillian> as we all should be
21:02 < rillian> it's true that content distribution is was really drives adoption
21:03 < rillian> but there's a chicken-and-egg problem there
21:03 < rillian> in that we can't demand/coddle/encourage people to distribute using our codecs
21:03 < rillian> when there's less than universal support
21:03 < rillian> illiminables directshow filters are a great step there
21:03 < jmspeex> I say we start giving away free copies of Vorbis
21:03 -!- Company [~Company@pD9E3335B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #xiphmeet
21:04 < jmspeex> (sorry, couldn't resist)
21:04 < xiphmont> [groan]
21:04 < rillian> jmspeex: seriously though. that's obviously not been enough
21:04 < jmspeex> I know. Same for Speex
21:04 < rillian> jack suggested we divvy up the vendors, osen, platforms, players, etc.
21:04 < MikeS> The problem, fairly consistently over the last N years, has been a lack of win32 people that actually stay around long-term. So we have to figure out what we're doing wrong there: why won't they stay?
21:04 < rillian> and start doing real advocacy
21:05 < xiphmont> Our client support suffered greatly when all the independent players of the Bubble disappeared to be replaced with iTunes/Winamp.  And that was it.
21:05 < xiphmont> er
21:05 < xiphmont> iTunes/WiMP
21:05 < jmspeex> Actually, as rillian says, a DS filter that supports all codecs is nice.
21:05 < rillian> so, we need to be talking to the iTunes and WMP project managers
21:05 < rillian> they don't have to listen
21:05 < rillian> but we should be bugging them *all the time* about it
21:06 < rillian> Jack volunteered to take the hard ones
21:06 < rillian> Apple, Microsoft, Real
21:06 < jmspeex> doesn't DS ensure all the files play with WMP?
21:06 -!- volsung [~volsung@cs6668118-176.austin.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
21:06 < rillian> yes. but does microsoft ensure that all WMPs have our filters?
21:07 < rillian> when can people encode to vorbis in iTunes
21:07 < rillian> heck, apple just shipped a flac-alike!
21:07 < rillian> we should be leaning on them all the time
21:07 < rillian> this is really a separate issue from development work
21:07 < kfish> rillian, silvia and I talked to Dave Singer from Apple last year. Apparently they're concerned about patents surrounding Vorbis.
21:07 < jmspeex> We may want to start a "Get Ogg Now!" campain with icons that point to eaily installable DS filters.
21:08 < kfish> rillian, If that's really the case, they (and other companies) may need a stronger patent statement from Xiph.
21:08 < rillian> kfish: the US legal system doesn't work that way
21:08 < MikeS> jmspeex: if we have good WMP filters, yes - but we need to get them either a) installed by default, or b) on some sort of auto-install server so they get installed on-the-fly when a user tries to play an ogg (WMP has this, right? I know some of the other big ones do...)
21:08 < rillian> but what we can do is talk to them about it more
21:08 < QuantumKnot> the quicktime vorbis plugins work well with iTunes
21:08 < rillian> QuantumKnot: except for streaming
21:08 < MikeS> QuantumKnot: really? I've heard they're incomplete and flaky.
21:09 < rillian> unless there's a new version I haven't seen
21:09 < kfish> rillian, I meant a statement of how Vorbis has been designed using prior art, that's all.
21:09 < jmspeex> MikeS: Exactly... and I think b) will help having more content so that a) can happen.
21:09 < xiphmont> kfish: the strongest statement we can make are that big companies like Virgin, IBM, EA and Microsoft itself ship Vorbis in their products everyday.
21:09 < rillian> So jack volunteered to do the hard ones
21:10 < rillian> I'll pass on what you said kfish. maybe you can work with him and apple
21:10 < vanguardist> (excuse me, who is kfish?)
21:10 < xiphmont> Conrad Parker
21:10 < rillian> CSIRO person, along with Silvia
21:10 < MikeS> Maybe you should write that up and put it on the website? Explaining why the legal system makes it impossible to _guarantee_ anything, but showing that $BIG_COMPANIES are using it, etc.
21:10 < vanguardist> thx
21:10 < rillian> author of liboggz and libfishsound
21:10 < MikeS> rillian: other than "the hard ones", what targets do we have?
21:10 < kfish> vanguardist, hi :)
21:10 < vanguardist> hi hi
21:11 < rillian> I offered to take gnome/gstreamer/kde
21:11 < rillian> (hopefully with a lot of help from thomasvs :)
21:11 < rillian> That leaves, every game company and player you know
21:11 < rillian> linux and bsd distributions (making sure we're available and the default)
21:11 < rillian> Java
21:12 < MikeS> There's also the ongoing hardware-company-advocacy. Apple, obviously, would be a great one to get there, too.
21:12 < Misirlou> Apple iPod feedback: http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipod.html
21:12 < Misirlou> Apple iTunes and iTunes Music Store feedback: http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunes.html
21:12 < xiphmont> Note that I believe IBM ships Ogg support in their JVM in some form.
21:12 < rillian> xiphmont: very cool
21:12 < rillian> if we could get into Sun's that would be major
21:12 < xiphmont> Also, apparently IBM has an active 'Emerging Business Opportunity' group researching online music right now.
21:12 < MikeS> So I guess with most of the free-software-world, it's mostly a matter of advocating for "make us the default", since they've _generally_ already got support.
21:13 < rillian> and given their desktop linux efforts, I thnk we have a good chance
21:13 < rillian> MikeS: yes
21:13 < MikeS> xiphmont: really? cool. I'll have to go and have a look at IBM's jvm again.
21:13 < rillian> So how wants to talk to Sun/java people?
21:13 < rillian> who
21:13 < thomasvs> I think JDS already has vorbis
21:13 < rillian> we thought adi might be good there
21:13 < MikeS> Sun has apparently even stopped shipping mp3 decoders in their JVM, last I heard.
21:13 < MikeS> rillian: why adi, particularly?
21:14 < rillian> he likes C++
21:14 < rillian> and it seems a useful direction for his skills
21:14 < rillian> anyway this is something non-developers can really help with
21:14 < MikeS> C++? I thought we were talking about targetting sun/java?
21:15 < xiphmont> 'native support'
21:15 < MikeS> (I'm not saying he's a bad person to do this sort of thing - he's not - just that it wasn't obvious to me why you were singling him out)
21:15 < rillian> vanguardist: would you like to talk to macromedia? until they start supporting vorbis in flash?
21:16 < rillian> Arc: this would be good for your publicity skills too
21:16 < rillian> well, perhaps our efforts will inspire you :)
21:16 < Arc> rillian: alot of my free time is getting eaten up writting a fork-distro of Gentoo without MP3/etc support as default, after being abhorred at finding out it doesn't even allow you to turn off MP3 decoding
21:17 < Arc> so consider that my contribution :-)
21:17 < jmspeex> Is is possible to have a java applet that plays ogg files so websites can have have Ogg files without requiring a download?
21:17 < vanguardist> rillian: ok
21:17 < rillian> Arc: but gentoo also needs to be convinced not to do that
21:17 < MikeS> jmspeex: yes. 
21:17 < MikeS> jmspeex: I believe such already exists.
21:17 < rillian> vanguardist: great, thanks!
21:17 < jmspeex> Any volunteer?
21:17 < kjoonlee> jmspeex: jorbis
21:18 < Misirlou> yeah, I played with it the other day
21:18 < Misirlou> it=jorbis
21:18 < jmspeex> Someone already did it for Speex, but I don't think it's open-source - though the java port of Speex is.
21:18 < MikeS> (they use the java-translation of libvorbis, so they're not ultra-speedy, but this isn't generally a problem on modern hardware)
21:18 < Arc> rillian: I'm hoping the creation of FreeGentoo gives them the nessesary kick-in-the-ass.. their dev team is sufficiently split on the subject where, at current, i don't think they're going to budge
21:18 < thomasvs> Arc: is there a thread on a list we can look at for that discussion ?
21:19 < rillian> Someone should also approach the mono folks
21:21 < Misirlou> They can normally be found in a Blog Near You
21:21 < Arc> thomasvs: mostly the discussion has happened on IRC, but i did some google'ing and found it's something that has been discussed before.
21:22 < rillian> Anyway, that's the idea. we need to step up out adoption efforts
21:22 < rillian> Find out where we're not supported
21:22 < rillian> why we're not not supported
21:22 < rillian> and how we can get supported
21:22 < Misirlou> How does Mono play into this? C# bindings?
21:23 < rillian> Misirlou: yes. support in their base library, that sort of thing
21:23 < thomasvs> so apparently, sun's jds ships with vorbis, flac and speex
21:23 < rillian> thomasvs: wow
21:23 < Misirlou> albeit it seems an outdated version of flac
21:24 < thomasvs> yes, sun is very conservative about versions it ships
21:24 < rillian> Misirlou: you want to pester them to change it?
21:24  * thomasvs doesn't want to field support questions for 0.6 versions of gstreamer :/
21:24 < QuantumKnot> MikeS: just to answer your question about the QT plugin way up above, it's not feature complete (visualisations dont work), but yes, ogg vorbis files can play, be listed, and even vorbis comments work in iTunes.  Latest version speeds up vorbis file loading (released in March I think)
21:24 < MikeS> JDS is just gnome, isn't it?
21:25 < MikeS> (well, presumably a somewhat modified gnome, but basically...)
21:25 < Misirlou> rillian: sure, I was just hooked up with some names
21:25 < rillian> next step should be the JDK :)
21:25 < rillian> Misirlou: great!
21:25 < rillian> in the interests of time, lets move on to the last item
21:26 < rillian> thomasvs was complaining about the time
21:26 < rillian> and jack couldn't make it because of that, though he would have liked to come to this one
21:26 < rillian> So I think we should alternate a couple of times
21:26 < thomasvs> eek - not complaining, just generally wondering
21:26 < rillian> so at least everyone can come some of the times
21:26 < thomasvs> (but yes, my gf would appreciate it)
21:27 < rillian> any other suggestions?
21:27 < rillian> this one was at 0 GMT
21:27 < rillian> one obvious thing is to try 8 and 16 GMT
21:27 < rillian> anyone here have a preference for a different day?
21:27 < xiphmont> I still like Wed.
21:27 < xiphmont> ...but am flexible on time.
21:28 < kfish> I prefer midweek, weekends are for partying :)
21:28 < xiphmont> agreed.
21:28 < rillian> MikeS, kfish: how about 16 GMT on wednesday?
21:28 -!- adiabatic [~comatoast@dsl-206-55-130-248.tstonramp.com] has joined #xiphmeet
21:29 < rillian> hi adi
21:29 < adiabatic> Still going?
21:29 < MikeS> For those of us in australia, I'd imagine rougly 0-12 GMT is a reasonable range. 
21:29 < MikeS> rillian: I don't think I could make it at 16 GMT. 
21:30 < rillian> ok 8 GMT is fine for me
21:30 < rillian> 3 AM for monty
21:30 < rillian> what about that?
21:30 < Misirlou> heh
21:30 < xiphmont> I *just* got myself back to getting up before 10am...
21:30 < MikeS> (that's ~2am, and I do have to go to work in the morning). But I don't expect a time to work well for everyone, so don't consider that an absolute objection.
21:30 < xiphmont> OK, 3am it is.  I like having an excuse.
21:30 < adiabatic> Er, what's being discussed?
21:30 < jmspeex> 8 GMT is 4 EDT... a bit late
21:31 -!- DanielWH [~DanielWH@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:262b] has quit ["Client exiting"]
21:31 < MikeS> I think 8 GMT is going to be bad for more people than 16 GMT is.
21:31 < MikeS> (not for me, but I'm only one person... in the interests of everyone else...)
21:31 < Misirlou> adiabatic: Meeting times.
21:31 < thomasvs> 12GMT doesn't work for you MikeS ?
21:32 < MikeS> adiabatic: we're discussing having two times for meetings (on alternate months), so more people can make it. 
21:32 < adiabatic> Messy.
21:32 < MikeS> thomasvs: 12 GMT would work for me. It's awfully early for the US people, though, isn't it?
21:32 < rillian> I can get up that early
21:32 < rillian> it's not too bad on the east coast
21:33 < adiabatic> For what day of the week will this be?
21:33 < rillian> wednesday in north america
21:33 < MikeS> Anyway, I'm unlikely to be able to make _any_ of these times next month (I'll be moving, and probably won't have internet access for a while)
21:33 < xiphmont> 12GMT is 8am for me?
21:33 < xiphmont> [I'll do that]
21:33 < rillian> xiphmont: yes
21:34 < rillian> ok. let's try 12 GMT
21:34 < xiphmont> really, I'll manage to do any time once a month.
21:34 < rillian> that's nice an symmetrical
21:34 < adiabatic> I can't make it from 3 PM to 6:30 PM at GMT-7...
21:35 < rillian> adiabatic: you should be able to make this one. it's just really early (5 am)
21:35 < xiphmont> giggle.
21:35 < rillian> Ok. that's everything on our agenda
21:35 < Misirlou> So, 23:59 +00:00 and 11:59 +00:00 will be the alternating times?
21:35 < rillian> Misirlou: at least for the next month, yes :)
21:35 < adiabatic> I dislike getting up that early, but it's a much better time slot than what we have now. At least for me.
21:36 < Misirlou> Okay, cool, I will update the wiki.
21:36 < MikeS> So, I assume we're doing the 12 GMT one next month?
21:36 < adiabatic> So we're having twice-monthly meetings?
21:36 < rillian> thanks everyone for coming!
21:36 < MikeS> adiabatic: no, once monthly, alternating times.
21:36 < kfish> thanks rillian
21:36 < rillian> do I have a second for adjournment?
21:36 < adiabatic> second.
21:36 < xiphmont> yay!
21:37 < rillian> Ok. we now return you to informal discussions
21:37 < xiphmont> Oh, 'aye!'
21:37 < xiphmont> I have to go make Sigmatel happy.
21:37 < kfish> pants off!
21:37  * thomasvs runs to bed :)
21:37 < thomasvs> kfish: geez - do all aussies say that ?
--- Log closed Wed May 05 21:37:44 2004