--- Log opened Wed Jun 02 08:00:25 2004 08:00 -!- xiphlog [~giles@motherfish-II.xiph.org] has joined #xiphmeet 08:00 -!- Topic for #xiphmeet: Welcome to the Xiph.org meeting and discussion channel. The next monthly meeting will be 2004-06-02 12:00 +00:00; please add items to the agenda for that meeting at . 08:00 -!- Topic set by ChanServ [] [Wed Jun 2 03:45:15 2004] 08:00 [Users #xiphmeet] 08:00 [ adiabatic ] [ jack ] [ myidiym ] [ volsung ] 08:00 [ Arc ] [ jmspeex ] [ rillian ] [ xiphlog ] 08:00 [ illiminable] [ maikmerten] [ thomasvs] [ xiphmont] 08:00 -!- Irssi: #xiphmeet: Total of 12 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 12 normal] 08:00 -!- Channel #xiphmeet created Wed Jun 2 03:45:15 2004 08:00 -!- Irssi: Join to #xiphmeet was synced in 1 secs 08:00 -!- [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup 08:01 -!- rillian changed the topic of #xiphmeet to: Welcome to the Xiph.org meeting and discussion channel. June Monthlymeeting in progress. The agenda is at . 08:01 < jmspeex> I'm there :) 08:02 -!- LarstiQ [larstiq@cust.7.157.adsl.cistron.nl] has joined #xiphmeet 08:02 -!- rillian changed the topic of #xiphmeet to: Welcome to the Xiph.org meeting and discussion channel. June Monthlymeeting in progress. The agenda is at . Live log at http://xiph.org/~giles/xiphmeet.log for those joining us late. 08:02 < myidiym> myidiym is Brett from IEEE-ISTO 08:02 < rillian> hi Brett 08:02 -!- wtay [~wtay@213.170.47.91] has joined #xiphmeet 08:02 -!- jdahlin [~jdahlin@213.170.47.91] has joined #xiphmeet 08:03 < rillian> thomasvs, yes, now's the time 08:03 < LarstiQ> hello all 08:03 < rillian> shall we begin? 08:03 < rillian> I see someone filled out the agenda :) 08:03 < jmspeex> Can we start with the topics that concern me? 08:04 < jmspeex> (have to leave before the end) 08:04 < rillian> ok. 08:04 < rillian> Speex firts 08:04 < rillian> first 08:04 < rillian> jmspeex, status report? 08:04 < jmspeex> Nothing new :) 08:05 * jmspeex has been busy with PhD 08:05 < rillian> :) 08:05 < rillian> The other thing that came up 08:06 < rillian> is that jack and I have been talking to stpeter, one of the jabber developers 08:06 < rillian> and they're very interested in adding conferencing abilities to the jabber messaging framework 08:06 < rillian> starting with speex 08:06 < rillian> which is quite exciting 08:06 < rillian> jabber is sort of our equivalent in the 'Instant Messaging' field 08:07 < volsung> Ooh. That would be neat. 08:07 < rillian> so if anyone's interested in helping with that, dig in and write an example implementation 08:07 < jmspeex> Except that as I understand it, they provide specs, but no software directly 08:07 < rillian> that's correct 08:08 < rillian> I think the idea was that we write something, then give them a spec 08:08 < jmspeex> I'm interested, but there's a networking issue that needs to be resolved first. 08:08 < rillian> they basically provide a way to negotiate a connection 08:08 < rillian> and there are a couple of ways of openning a data stream between clients that we could use 08:08 < jmspeex> jack told me the initial goal was to define something over TCP, so that it goes over a NAT, but I don't think it's a good idea. 08:09 < rillian> well, it would be a place to start 08:09 < rillian> stpeter was also resistent to sending the data over jabber itself 08:09 < rillian> although that would solve all the NAT issues 08:09 < volsung> Heh. TCP for tunnelling through NAT was precisely why I was interested. :) 08:09 < LarstiQ> The Helix-Jabber group is working on something like this, they thought of speex as a minimum codec iirc 08:10 < rillian> but latency may be unacceptable there 08:10 < rillian> so I'd try that, followed by a direct connection 08:10 < jmspeex> latency *will* be unacceptable 08:10 < rillian> the other point is that to do more than 1-on-1 conferencing you need a reflector *anyway* 08:10 < jmspeex> (jack is checking the STUN protocol, which may solve the problem) 08:10 < rillian> which also solves the NAT issue 08:11 < jmspeex> no it doesn't (only one way) 08:11 < rillian> LarstiQ, interesting. I didn't know they were working on it. 08:11 < rillian> so maybe we can catch up to apple in a year :) 08:12 -!- vanguardist [~vanguardi@motherfish-II.xiph.org] has joined #xiphmeet 08:12 < rillian> anyway, that's a new project idea 08:12 < rillian> on with the project reports 08:12 < rillian> the server replacement didn't go well 08:12 < rillian> we had the new machine shipped to the colocation facility 08:12 < rillian> but it would not boot 08:13 < rillian> the vendor diagnosed a bad power supply 08:13 < rillian> and one is on route. 08:13 < rillian> should arrive today or tomorrow; so we'll see if that's the issue 08:13 < xiphmont> "Another bad power supply? How nice fo them." :-) 08:13 < rillian> the old server remains flakey, as everyone noticed this weekend, I'm sure 08:13 < rillian> xiphmont, want to give us an update on ogg and vorbis? 08:14 < xiphmont> You just know that MF-II does tequila shots friday nights. 08:14 < xiphmont> Yes 08:14 < xiphmont> No vorbis work from us at the moment, but you've noticed a third-party tuning recently won HA's latest listening test, beating all comers along with Musepack. 08:15 -!- volsung is now known as volsung_brb 08:15 < xiphmont> AoTuV is the original reference modified with some 'symptom fixes' while the world waits for deeper fixes to the modfel from us. 08:15 < xiphmont> symptom fixes or not, the tuning is effective. 08:17 < xiphmont> Topping a listening test against all the latest/best/baddest from the competition is quite a feat and keeps the Vorbis world right on the edge while we're not doing Vorbis tuning ourselves. Three cheers to AoTuV! 08:17 < myidiym> press release opportunity? 08:17 < xiphmont> Ogg: Oggfile's code and API are taking shape. You'll see code in SVN as soon as I do a full theora/vorbis encode using only the three outlined function calls. 08:17 < xiphmont> myidiym: not really. 08:18 < xiphmont> ...but it did get slashdotted 08:18 < xiphmont> ...and generated some firece trolling on the microsoft user community boards :-) 08:18 < myidiym> so press packet opportunity at least 08:18 < xiphmont> (WMA9 didn't do so well) 08:18 < xiphmont> that I agree with 08:18 < xiphmont> in the sense that the listening test was rigorous. 08:19 < xiphmont> Well, the listening test methodology was rigorous; it was conducted in distributed fashion over the net. 08:19 < rillian> myidiym, yes, certainly a press release opportunity 08:20 < xiphmont> you think? OK 08:20 < xiphmont> it is certainly real news. 08:20 < xiphmont> ...and more defensible than most of the 'tests' Real and Microsoft have published ;-) 08:21 < myidiym> it is "goodness" either way, and "goodness" must be shared :)... is the "advocacy" list the right place to discuss/collaborate on PR activities? 08:21 < rillian> it's appears a rigorous test, and vorbis won. that sounds like press criteria to me 08:21 < rillian> myidiym, yes, that would be a good place 08:21 < rillian> ok. for my part 08:21 < myidiym> ok 08:21 < rillian> I believe libogg 1.1.1 is still waiting a bug fix from monty 08:22 < rillian> and libvorbis 1.0.2 is just waiting my getting the win32 build organized 08:22 < jack> whn exactly are we switching to libogg2? 08:22 < jack> because it seems to me there could be a significant amount of work to port oggfile 08:22 < rillian> vorbis-tools 1.0.2 still needs some build attention on *nix 08:22 < rillian> (particularly flac detection and disabling static linking on macos) 08:23 < Arc> jack: libtheora should still be ready for libogg2-building with just the build switch. 08:23 * LarstiQ has been looking at using libogg2 for the Helix plugins also. 08:23 < xiphmont> jack: all oggfile work is assuming libogg2 08:23 < Arc> and because of Tremor, technically, vorbis has already been ported (kinda) 08:23 < xiphmont> I'm not straddling there. 08:23 < rillian> jack, the original plan was to release ogg2 and oggfile together 08:23 < jack> ok 08:24 < rillian> xiphmont, have you ported libvorbis then? 08:24 < xiphmont> rillian: yes 08:24 < xiphmont> Tremor was the first deployment 08:25 -!- volsung_brb is now known as volsung 08:25 < xiphmont> the porting for a codec is nrear-trivial 08:25 < xiphmont> ...assuming the codec is using the bitpacker exclusively (Vorbis is) 08:25 < rillian> it was vorbisfile and the examples that were painful 08:25 < jmspeex> Speex will be just a wrapper anyway 08:25 < xiphmont> Yes 08:25 < xiphmont> ...and Oggfile takes the place of Vorbisfile. 08:26 < xiphmont> the vorbisfile example is not painful and neither will Oggfile's be. 08:26 < rillian> so work will still need to be done to port the examples 08:26 < rillian> unless you're going to do an #ifdef like Arc did for libtheora 08:26 < xiphmont> Right now, and OggFile encode of Vorbis/Theora is three function calls if you're not gettin' fancy. 08:26 < xiphmont> No ifdefs. 08:26 < xiphmont> I convert whole-cloth. 08:27 < LarstiQ> The plan is to move everything to ogg2 entirely? 08:27 < rillian> what version number are we going to put on that libvorbis? 08:27 < jack> 1.1 i think. 08:28 < xiphmont> LarstiQ: yes, libogg2 is a workalike, but it gives things needed for Oggfile 08:28 < rillian> I agree, even though a dependency change is the only big difference 08:28 < xiphmont> yes, it is 08:28 -!- purple_haese [~carsten@motherfish-II.xiph.org] has joined #xiphmeet 08:28 < Arc> xiphmont: I ported libtheora so that the ifdef's can be removed, along with the macro calls, and a search and replace. the macros use the same syntax as libogg2 08:28 < rillian> I suppose we can call it 1.2 when new tunings go in 08:28 < LarstiQ> xiphmont: good, so ogg calls will be more or less the same between Tremor and vorbis I take it? 08:29 < xiphmont> yes 08:29 < xiphmont> the codecs pretty much only talk to the bitpacker abstraction in libogg2 08:29 < xiphmont> the codec glue needs to do more talking to OggFile 08:29 < xiphmont> Arc: I saw in the code review. Thanks. 08:29 -!- dev0 [tobias@pD9E58F1E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #xiphmeet 08:29 < rillian> ok. shall we move on to icecast? 08:29 < rillian> anyone here want to give a report? 08:30 < xiphmont> Oh, one other thing 08:30 < rillian> xiphmont, go ahead 08:30 < xiphmont> I wanted to alert Aaron that I want to talk to him about Real and its freaky async framework 08:30 < xiphmont> he's not here, so later on that. 08:30 -!- Yen [Yen@d51A5849A.kabel.telenet.be] has joined #xiphmeet 08:30 < rillian> ok 08:30 < LarstiQ> Aaron is on vacation till the 9th. 08:30 < xiphmont> ah 08:31 < rillian> I don't think any of the icecast people are here 08:31 < xiphmont> It's early, and they party at night. 08:31 < xiphmont> :-) 08:31 < rillian> the yp code rewrite made it into svn 08:31 < rillian> which was one of the major pieces for 2.1 08:31 < jack> yp code rewrite? 08:31 < jack> oh 08:31 < jack> the icecast side code 08:32 < rillian> jack, yes 08:32 < rillian> otherwise there's not been much activity 08:32 < xiphmont> BTW, is it us who implemented burst-on-connect? 08:32 < rillian> karl implemented it on his branch 08:32 < Arc> with OggFile getting close, does anyone know if they're planning to include multi-codec support in 2.1? 08:32 < xiphmont> Some of the servers advertising on yp have been doing it. 08:32 < rillian> I'm not sure if that's in the trunk or not 08:33 < jmspeex> Bye everyone 08:33 < rillian> Arc, I've discussed that being a gate for 2.1 with Mike 08:33 < jack> bye jm 08:33 < rillian> jmspeex, thanks for joining us 08:33 < xiphmont> Bye Jean-Marc! 08:33 -!- jmspeex [~jmspeex@modemcable201.229-70-69.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Si tu fais le mal, fais le bien, car le mal bien fait ne fait jamais bien mal."] 08:34 < rillian> and we'd certainly like that for theora as soon as the beta is out 08:34 < Arc> iirc, that's more an issue for libshout than Icecast, but Icecast does need to know about the header pages 08:34 < rillian> but it's also not worth holding up a release if they want to do one 08:34 < rillian> I don't expect Mike will let us switch to ogg2 for 2.1 08:35 < rillian> but he's said he'd take multiplexed ogg stream patches 08:35 < Arc> *nod* 08:35 < volsung> Ack. Gotta begin my morning commute, so I'll interject this now: All I've been working on is making Theora videos, now available at http://www.xiph.org/~volsung/theora/ Mixtape is from the CC moving images contest, and Honey is a 90 minute film released under a CC attribution-noncommercial-noderivs license. I'm a video n00b, so let me know if I botched something up. (And don't send these to your friends just yet.) 08:35 -!- volsung is now known as volsung_away 08:36 < rillian> anything else before we go on with theora? 08:36 < thomasvs> on a general note, how resistant is the whole xiph codec tree to using pkg-config ? 08:36 < thomasvs> I'm tired of inventing workarounds in configure for various versions 08:36 < jack> i'd like to discuss briefly the RTP draft at some point 08:36 < rillian> jack, ok. 08:37 < rillian> thomasvs, I've no objection to including pkg-config support 08:37 < rillian> but it needs to be optional 08:37 < jack> i thought we already did pkg-config support? 08:37 < rillian> so we still work with non-pkg-config installs 08:37 < jack> oh. didn't we decide we didn't need it? :) 08:37 < jack> that's why we use plugins in libao. 08:38 < rillian> it's very convenient if it's all available 08:38 < rillian> we just can't depend on it ourselves 08:38 < thomasvs> well, in that case some of the .m4's need touching up. but I'll check on them first. 08:38 < jack> it's convinient? isn't it longer than -lvorbis :) 08:38 < jack> `pkg-config --libs vorbis` 08:38 < rillian> thomasvs, so want to write a 'use pkg-config if available or fallback to the old tests' macro set for us? 08:38 < xiphmont> "Works better than libtool" 08:38 < thomasvs> jack: it does the right thing when not installed in /usr 08:38 < jack> doesn't our stuff do that currently? 08:38 < thomasvs> jack: which is kind of important if you guys are seriously thinking about pushing ogg2 and new versoins 08:39 < jack> xiphmont: no even similar programs. 08:39 < jack> s/no/not/ 08:39 < thomasvs> jack: sure, but it breaks all over and pkg-config is a much nicer solution to the problem. 08:40 < xiphmont> jack: yes, one works. I know, but it can be used to eliminate some of what libtool is needed for. 08:40 < jack> just seems like a pain to support multiple build infrastructures. 08:40 < xiphmont> Yes 08:40 < rillian> yes 08:40 < thomasvs> jack: right, which is why you should switch to pkg-config :) 08:40 < thomasvs> it's ten times easier to support than all the crap hardcoded .m4 files that all contain "# Shamelessly stolen from Owen Taylor and Manish Singh" at the top :) 08:41 < xiphmont> ha ha ha 08:41 < thomasvs> but I digress, I'll try and compile the full svn suite in a different prefix and investigate 08:41 * LarstiQ tries to block out the thought of having to support msvc again 08:41 < xiphmont> It's like "All manpanges have a common troff ancestor" 08:41 * rillian just wishes someone would add MSVC output to automake 08:41 < rillian> ok, on with theora 08:42 < rillian> derf has written a lot of spec 08:42 < thomasvs> rillian: the matroska guys are underway porting gst to win, maybe we can get them to tackle the xiph stack too. 08:42 < rillian> thomasvs, that would be nice. we still lack regular win32 build support 08:42 < rillian> unfortunately there's about 2 chapters to go 08:42 < rillian> so we missed our last deadline 08:43 < rillian> Silvia from CSIRO has been chipping in with figures and editing suggestions, which is wonderful :) 08:43 < rillian> However, we've not found any more design gotcha's 08:43 < illiminable> If people need build support for win32, just get them to mail me... it only takes a minute. 08:44 < adiabatic> illiminable: cool...would you be able to work on our SDKs and stuff? 08:44 < rillian> and the multiplexing issue, at least for theora+vorbis was settled in favor of what we were already doing 08:44 < illiminable> Sure... just mail me where they are. Whiuch project in particular do you mean ? 08:44 < rillian> so there was no reason to delay adoption any further 08:44 < Arc> rillian: so what's the current ETA on Beta-1, given the documentation todo? 08:45 < rillian> so, as of friday we froze the bitstream format 08:45 < rillian> anything encoded with the alpha-3 theora encoder_example will be playable in the future 08:45 < rillian> so yay, that's a major milestone. 08:45 < adiabatic> illiminable: ogg, vorbis, and vorbis-tools, if nothing else... 08:46 < rillian> and theora 08:46 < illiminable> Sure... i have builds of all those (not current) in my project which i can work from 08:46 < rillian> illiminable, thanks for volunteering. If you could make sure latest svn off all those work out of the box, that would be the first step 08:46 < jack> we already have infrastucture for this. we just need to update it i believe. look at win32sdk. 08:46 < rillian> then we we do releases, build the dlls and sdk for us. 08:47 < rillian> what jack said 08:47 < illiminable> Sure... one thing that i 've found with the previous ones, is that .sln files tend to like to have all their dependancies contained. And they really need to to "build out of the box" 08:47 < rillian> So, we are *also* doing a theora beta-1 release next week 08:47 < rillian> despite the spec not being finished 08:47 < rillian> at this point, getting people using it is more important than holding to that promise 08:47 < illiminable> Most of the changes i make to the configs are is to have dependencies properly mapped, and heavy optimisation settings 08:48 < rillian> so the code will be released June 8, 08:48 < Yen> any idea when the specs are finished? 08:48 < rillian> followed by a media push June 9 and 10 08:48 < thomasvs> was there an actual alpha4 release now ? 08:48 < Arc> thomasvs: there was no need because no changes were made from alpha3 08:48 < rillian> thomasvs, I did not do one 08:49 < thomasvs> rillian: we hope to get an online theora stream up this week, but it'd be nice if we could get our code on an online server that can front the stream for us 08:49 < thomasvs> rillian: that way it could be mentioned somewhere public 08:49 < illiminable> Oh... one thing i should mention is i don't run VC6 at all... only .net 2002 that could be a problem 08:49 < rillian> thomasvs, that would be good 08:49 < jack> thomasvs: can't say much for reliability, but we're happy to host the the demo stream 08:49 < adiabatic> illiminable: Considering that most of what we have are ancient MSVC++6 things, this would be an improvement... 08:49 < jack> we have plenty of bandwidth. 08:50 < thomasvs> jack: well, reliability is not my concern, bandwidth and "being able to compile the gst/python/twisted stack on it" is 08:50 < thomasvs> maybe we can discuss that over email 08:50 < jack> yep. 08:50 < rillian> thomasvs, yes please. 08:50 < illiminable> Good... vc6 is dead... and ms have released a free vs.net 2003 optimising compiler... so no-one has any reason to use that outdated crap any more :) 08:50 < rillian> So the major things we need by next week are: 08:50 < jack> i've been emailing lots of my old contacts for video content 08:50 < rillian> demo video clips 08:50 < jack> i have a call with warner brothers in the near future :) 08:50 < rillian> volsung has done some encodes as he mentioned 08:51 < jack> that probably won't pan out, but there is always hope :) 08:51 < rillian> Arc also has some CC content in http://xiph.org/~arc/CC/ 08:51 < purple_haese> They could probably supply movie trailers, though. 08:51 < purple_haese> Free advertising is always nice. 08:51 < jack> purple_haese: that's what i'm hoping. 08:51 < Arc> I'm tackling the 1st and 3rd place CC videos, volsung is doing the 2nd place (his sister's) 08:52 < rillian> we have permission to use the _Revolution OS_ trailer and music video, but I'm still trying to get a copy of the dvd to encode from. No higher-bitrate master coming unfortunately. 08:52 < Arc> I just got ahold of the 3rd place video producer last night, he's getting a lossless 08:52 < rillian> purple_haese, except that this is the major movie studios we're talking about :) 08:52 < rillian> Arc, oh good. glad to hear you finally reached him 08:52 < rillian> the other thing we need in players people can just download 08:53 < rillian> I'll take care of MacOS 08:53 < jack> we need one player for each os, or an easy set of plugins. 08:53 < rillian> some help with linux would be appreciated 08:53 < rillian> and someone needs to spiff up splayer and do a windows build 08:53 < jack> a staticly linked standalone player is probably preferable 08:53 < rillian> basically a small static application that can play theora video 08:53 < rillian> right 08:53 < LarstiQ> what help and player is this about? 08:53 -!- ozone [~pan068@c211-30-78-105.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #xiphmeet 08:53 < Arc> rillian: don't we have mplayer, xine, and Real's Helix player already on Linux? 08:54 * LarstiQ nods 08:54 < jack> arc: we can't ask people to install mplayer. 08:54 < rillian> Aaron said he would try to make sure helixplayer is available with the latest theora plugins by the 9th 08:54 < rillian> that's one thing we can link to 08:54 < illiminable> vlc plays theora under windows 08:54 < rillian> illiminable, ok, that's another to link to 08:54 < adiabatic> rillian: ...but he's on vacation until the 9th, right? 08:54 < Arc> I've noticed that KDE's Multimedia player suite doesnt support Theora, but does support Vorbis 08:54 < rillian> we'd still like a smaller demo app 08:54 < rillian> adiabatic, yes 08:54 < illiminable> my directshow filter play reasonably well... but not really reliable enough yet... and they have a major problem with WMP 9 08:55 < xiphmont> I've also found some sync clarifications that need to be docced (not changes; details realized in implementation) that I should talk to aaron about. 08:55 < rillian> illiminable, right. that's why we'd like a static example player 08:56 < illiminable> vlc is probably the go. 08:56 < rillian> illiminable, I take it that's a 'no'? :) 08:56 < jack> vlc isn't very good in linux. 08:56 < rillian> I need to ping mau and see what he can do 08:56 < thomasvs> gstreamer will have a player that works too 08:56 < illiminable> rillian: ???? 08:57 < rillian> illiminable, to building a static win32 example player for us 08:57 < jack> thomasvs: we don't want the example player to come with an army of dependencies. 08:57 < illiminable> A static player won't really help the situtation, it will still be based on directshow. 08:57 < thomasvs> jack: understood 08:57 < jack> after the first release, we will go the normal player route like we did with vorbis. 08:57 < rillian> thomasvs, nevertheless, I'd like to link to gstreamer if you have a supporting version available 08:58 < rillian> Arc, can you handle writing a press release and submitting the story to online news sites the 9th or 10th? 08:58 < Arc> absolutly. why not the 8th, however? 08:58 < jack> send the press erlease to us for checking please. 08:58 < rillian> breathing space 08:58 < adiabatic> ...yes. do run it by the rest of us first. 08:58 < rillian> yes, send the release to us for review 08:59 < Arc> if I submit a press release on the 8th, it wont get to most sites until the 9th. especially if it's sent out at night. 08:59 < illiminable> I really have no desire to imlplement video playback the old fashioned way, when directshow pretty much does all the hard stuff. I think i'd be better off trying to fix the directshow filter. I know whats wrong with it i just haven't been bothered to fix it yet :) 08:59 < rillian> what's wrong with the 10th? :) 08:59 < Arc> I'm just concerned that someone will beat us to it, and possibly, bungle the wording of the release 09:00 < illiminable> And i'm just about to start exams... so i wouldn't want to have dealines that i may not be able to keep. 09:00 < Arc> if we're not going to have the press out until later, let's delay making the announcements until then 09:00 < rillian> illiminable, ok that's fine. 09:00 < rillian> Arc, so have something ready for the 8th, just don't submit it 09:00 < Arc> ok. 09:01 < rillian> I'll also be in transit most of the 9th to a conference in Berlin 09:01 < Arc> oh can I raise an issue I've been meaning to bring up on this for awile? 09:01 -!- segher [~segher@blueice2n1.de.ibm.com] has joined #xiphmeet 09:01 < rillian> ok 09:01 < Arc> we need bittorrent installed on mfii(i). 09:01 < adiabatic> That would be handy. 09:01 < Arc> we simply cannot handle a /.'ing of the sample content on our own 09:01 < jack> yes. the theora demos will need to be bittorrented 09:02 < ozone> sorry i've jumped in on the discussion late: VLC plays theora alpha 3 files already, FYI 09:02 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: thomasvs 09:02 < rillian> Arc, is there a tracker web interface we can use? 09:02 < jack> and we pretty much could handle a /.ing i think. we could saturate the local ethernet and not fill the pipe. 09:02 < Arc> I think we should install a bt tracker on mfii(i), not my home system this time, and make sure that before the release we've setup enough seeds amoung ourselves 09:02 < rillian> I recall running bt to serve a bunch of individual files being a pain 09:02 < Arc> rillian: I'm unsure, the tracker I've always used has been a cli.. it's all python based so it's not like it's a big deal 09:03 < rillian> ozone, thanks for the confirmation 09:03 < Arc> I can manage setting everything up. I've done it before 09:03 < rillian> Ok, so bittorrent tracker for mf is on the todo list 09:04 < rillian> that's is for theora 09:04 < rillian> Next item is from adiabatic 09:04 < rillian> dropping 'Ogg' as a meta-project name 09:04 -!- Netsplit over, joins: thomasvs 09:04 < rillian> and just using it to refer to the container format 09:04 < rillian> I think we should do this 09:05 < rillian> xiphmont, any objection? 09:05 < xiphmont> I'm not sysadmin, no. 09:05 < jack> this has nothing to do with sysadmin :) 09:05 < xiphmont> Oh, Ogg 09:05 < xiphmont> I was behind. Gaim is pissing me off 09:05 < xiphmont> Um... 09:05 < rillian> not the 'ogg family of codecs' 09:05 < adiabatic> Same number of terms visitors will need to know, fewer meanings. Fewer things to think about while they learn about our stuff. 09:05 -!- Misirlou [~asdf@c-24-125-118-27.va.client2.attbi.com] has joined #xiphmeet 09:05 < jack> Xiph has been adopted as the metaproject name 09:05 < xiphmont> Well, I have no objection to retronaming 09:05 < rillian> but 'the xiph family of codecs' 09:06 < rillian> adiabatic, exactly 09:06 < xiphmont> Hrm. 09:06 < jack> anyway, i agree with the change. 09:06 < xiphmont> My gut objects, but I suspect my gut will not object after a few days of thinking, so OK 09:06 < adiabatic> Excellent. 09:06 < rillian> it makes xiph about the codecs we do, rather than about your personal projects, which I think you've been resisting :) 09:07 < xiphmont> Hey! 09:07 < xiphmont> Ogg is merely the most successful of my personal projects! 09:07 < rillian> exactly 09:07 < jack> someone register him moaninggoat.com 09:07 < xiphmont> :-) 09:07 < rillian> haha 09:07 < rillian> adiabatic, ok. make it so. 09:07 < xiphmont> Well, I think we should be about the audio projects in general. 09:08 < xiphmont> But yes, "Xiph family of codecs" is fine. 09:08 < rillian> xiphmont, sure 09:08 < myidiym> this sounds a bit like a "product managment" discussion... is there a mail list where this type of thread lives? 09:08 < rillian> audio and video :) 09:08 < rillian> myidiym, not really 09:08 < xiphmont> sorry, audio and video. And metadat 09:08 < rillian> advocacy would be appropriate, except a lot of developers aren't there 09:08 < xiphmont> Ralph just likes to wait and spring these things on me when there are people watching. 09:09 < rillian> we generally use vorbis-dev as a default for generic discussions 09:09 < rillian> next item 09:10 < rillian> anyone want to write a .NET wrapper for our stuff? 09:10 < illiminable> I'm already in progress. 09:10 < rillian> sounds good. 09:10 < jack> good news :) 09:10 < illiminable> it's a wrapper around libfishsound though. 09:10 < rillian> adiabatic, you have anything to say? 09:10 < adiabatic> illiminable: Does it use System.UInt*? 09:10 < jack> illiminable: why? 09:10 < rillian> illiminable, 3 levels of nesting? sounds perfect for .NET :) 09:10 < illiminable> because it has a sensible oo like api 09:11 < illiminable> and it gives speex and vorbis in one 09:11 < adiabatic> will libfishsound do naked flac anytime soon? 09:11 * rillian agrees a .NET port of libfishsound (as opposed to a wrapper) would be more appropriate 09:12 < ozone> i'm fairly sure conrad isn't very keen on porting libfishsound to .NET ... 09:12 < illiminable> Yes... i previously wrote a whole bunch of marshalling code to make conversions of most native type to .net types 09:12 < illiminable> @adiabatic 09:12 -!- volsung [~volsung@w-central-232-254.public.utexas.edu] has joined #xiphmeet 09:12 < illiminable> Do note... that any wrapper around antive code will be platform tied to win32 09:12 < adiabatic> illiminable: Eek. VB.NET doesn't have UInt*. 09:13 < illiminable> It's easy enough to change... it's not finished yet 09:13 < adiabatic> Using Managed C++, or just DllImportAttribute? 09:13 < illiminable> Managed C++ 09:13 < illiminable> MONO and alike will not support native code inside managed code in the next 3-5 years if ever 09:14 < rillian> ok, perhaps this can continue on the mailing lists 09:14 < rillian> adi's been soliciting website translations 09:14 < rillian> so if anyone would like to help, please contact hime 09:15 < jack> we have no text to translate yet, so i think this is moot other than finding who is interested in doing them. 09:15 < rillian> or webmaster at xiph 09:15 < rillian> *nod* 09:15 < adiabatic> jack: If someone wants to do stuff, /speex/ is ported already. 09:15 < rillian> well, you could translate the existing text. maybe then you could help rewrite it ;) 09:16 < rillian> Next item is better vorbis support 09:16 < rillian> this is just jack's point from the last meeting 09:16 < rillian> pick your favorite program and lobby them to support free codecs by default 09:16 < jack> i'm still working on flash. 09:16 < jack> i have a contact at apple finally, still searching for one at microsoft. 09:16 < jack> has anyone else made any progress here? 09:17 * rillian has not 09:17 < adiabatic> flash, that thing that "only in kenya" is made in? 09:17 < rillian> thomasvs, how's your effort with gnome schemes coming? 09:17 < jack> adiabatic: macromedia in general 09:17 < adiabatic> Gotcha. 09:17 < Yen> i'm telling people about Ogg Vorbis and flac... 09:17 < jack> ok people, we need to make more of an effort 09:18 < jack> i want everyone to do something for next month. 09:18 < adiabatic> What I wanted to address in that line is not only the problem of free codecs by default, but also making the UIs easier to use and faster to learn. 09:18 < jack> adiabatic: ui code is beyond our scope. 09:18 < jack> adiabatic: feel free to file bugs against those projects 09:18 < xiphmont> I'm working on Ximian/Novell 09:19 < Yen> there are some good GUI encoders avaible, that have optional support for ogg vorbis 09:19 < adiabatic> But maybe not FLAC. 09:19 < jack> xiphmont: what's the status there? 09:19 < myidiym> regarding "lobby them"... is there a comment "pitch" that everyone is working from? 09:19 < adiabatic> myidiym: I don't think we're that coordinated yet. 09:20 < Yen> dbpoweramp hosts plugins for it's music convertor, for Ogg Vorbis, FLAC and Speex 09:20 < xiphmont> Very receptive; I'm a bit hamstrung right now on "well, what do you guys really want?" 09:20 < rillian> myidiym, well, there's the version in the collective consciousness 09:20 < rillian> would be a good advocacy@ thread 09:20 < myidiym> adiabatic: is this another work item to live on "advocacy" list? 09:20 < xiphmont> As in, they need to know what it is we're after. 09:20 < Yen> + dbpoweramp works on wine 09:20 < xiphmont> Rather than just theoretical objectives, hard, specific requests we can negotiate., 09:20 < adiabatic> I've sketched some notes on http://xiph.cyclooctane.com/contribute/ , but...yeah, the advocacy list would be a good place for that...I'll sign up for that list one of these days. 09:21 < jack> xiphmont: money? :) 09:21 < xiphmont> I'm trying to come up with a coherent, concise response. 09:21 < jack> xiphmont: they don't make any multimedia tools to my knowledge. 09:22 < xiphmont> yes, that makes it harder. 09:22 < adiabatic> xiphmont: Automatic VorbisGain processing, Vorbis and (naked) FLAC encoding 09:22 < xiphmont> ...and yet they are one of the desktop lynchpins. 09:22 < rillian> a policy statement and some leadership of adoption for the linux desktop would help 09:22 < xiphmont> adiabatic: it is not an engineering discussion 09:22 < jack> why naked flac? 09:22 < jack> shouldn't we be pushing for ogg wrapped flac as the standard? 09:22 < adiabatic> Because Ogg FLAC has seeking bugs in the current release. 09:22 < jack> well, we should fix those. 09:22 < rillian> jack, I think that's an uphill battle 09:23 < xiphmont> Fix the goddamned bugs then 09:23 < jack> not undermine ourselves by working around them. 09:23 < jack> we're supposed to be developing a cohesive set of stuff 09:23 < adiabatic> Then if you could help bring Josh into the fold and see if we can get some more useful work out of him... 09:23 < adiabatic> ...and help move him and his team off sourceforge once and for all... 09:24 < rillian> adiabatic, do you know why they never followed through? 09:24 < jack> well he has to respond to email for any of that to happen. 09:24 < jack> the only time he's replied to me was in person in LA 09:24 < adiabatic> rillian: There wasn't pushing on both sides. 09:25 < Yen> rillian, iirc, the KDE team is converting their wav files to ogg vorbis for the next release. 09:25 < adiabatic> Then there's the (as far as I can tell) repeated stalling and resistance to migrating the mailing lists...do we even have flac@ and flac-dev@? 09:25 < rillian> Yen, you mean system sounds? 09:25 < Yen> yes 09:25 < volsung> Didn't they already do that? 09:25 < rillian> adiabatic, yes we do 09:25 < adiabatic> jack: I've gotten mail from josh. 09:26 < illiminable> There is virtually 0 activity in the other flac mailing lists... all i've got is spam and viruses 09:26 < Yen> volsungi think I saw that in some todo list 09:26 < adiabatic> illiminable: It's in there if you have a decent shovel and a good back. 09:27 < rillian> Yen, well, good news then :) 09:27 < adiabatic> The point would be to move everything of the SF project so nobody refers to it. 09:27 < Arc> google link: 09:27 < rillian> Ok, I think that's all the useful discussion we can have for the moment 09:27 < adiabatic> jack, rillian: assuming that mf-iii goes in in the next week, would you be willing to move them over to our stuff? 09:27 < Arc> great way to find out who's linking to what 09:28 < rillian> adiabatic, can you try and interest them in an actual move? 09:28 < adiabatic> rillian: Will do. Should I hold off until -iii is up and running? 09:28 < rillian> no 09:28 < adiabatic> Right. Inertia. 09:28 < rillian> *nod* 09:28 < rillian> Ok, next item. 09:29 < rillian> can we get an endorsement statement from someone at Epic? 09:29 < rillian> Jack? 09:29 < adiabatic> ...or anyone else respected? 09:29 < jack> we already have them. 09:29 < adiabatic> I wouldn't mind having Scott say how wonderful we are, but the last thing I want is a backlash from his higher-ups. 09:29 < jack> there have been numerous such endorsements in press releases, etc 09:30 < jack> what do you want it for? 09:30 < adiabatic> Something along the lines of... 09:30 < xiphmont> Yes, we may be able to get a new one out of Bungie/Gearbox/Microsoft. 09:30 < jack> xiphmont: please email them and cc me. 09:30 < xiphmont> OK 09:30 < xiphmont> Writing that down 09:31 < myidiym> and EA? 09:31 < LarstiQ> an endorsement out of Microsoft? Oh dear :) 09:31 < adiabatic> jack: For front pages (either / or /vorbis/) telling others how wonderful it is how we (they) saved money by using our stuff. 09:31 < jack> ok 09:31 < adiabatic> Stuff buried in the press releases don't help us like that. 09:31 < jack> monty: try and also get one from a hardware vendor. iriver is probably best. 09:32 < jack> adiabatic: no, but you could go look at the press releases and pull out the quotes. 09:32 < jack> that's more what i meant. 09:32 < purple_haese> What about DI? 09:32 < jack> what's DI? 09:32 < LarstiQ> Digitally Imported? 09:32 < Yen> This is from the Unreal 2 engine specs: Ogg Vorbis streaming sound and music support on Windows, Linux and Macintosh, offering higher quality audio with smaller file sizes than MP3 09:32 < purple_haese> Digital Innovations. The Neuros folks. 09:32 < rillian> Yen, :) 09:32 < adiabatic> jack: I was hoping for something a little more in-depth--possibly in the mini-interview range. 09:33 < jack> that would take effort. 09:33 < myidiym> adiabatic... you are looking for a case study I think 09:33 < Yen> rillian: they also have a link to this: http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/games.html 09:33 < myidiym> which is a great idea 09:33 < jack> and since no one put any in on general advocacy this month, i think the chances of that effort happening are slim. 09:33 < rillian> shall we move on to the last item? 09:34 < adiabatic> hold up... 09:34 < adiabatic> Perhaps I could put together a question list to be forwarded on to one of the developers, or... 09:34 < adiabatic> ? 09:34 < jack> if you do the work, sure 09:34 < jack> no objections 09:35 < adiabatic> I'lll need someone else to introduce me, though. 09:35 < jack> happy to do that once you've got the stuff prepared. 09:35 < adiabatic> Good, good. Next! 09:35 < rillian> ok, good. 09:36 < rillian> Should we drop Ogg Traffic in favor of a continuous stream of news posts 09:36 < rillian> I would prefer to maintain the latter 09:36 < rillian> but there's nothing wrong with having both 09:36 < adiabatic> Any particular reason why? 09:36 < rillian> personal preference 09:36 < volsung> I think a decentralized system where several of us have news posting privs is more likely to work. 09:36 < xiphmont> OggTraffic is fine and good... if it was more regular. 09:37 < xiphmont> Well... 09:37 < segher> continuous posts would be to a mailing list or on the front page or such? 09:37 < jack> volsung: we had that with vorbis.com. no one ever used it. 09:37 < xiphmont> the thing that made OggTraffic work is that someone owned the task. 09:37 < xiphmont> what jack just said. 09:37 < adiabatic> One reason for keeping OT would be to translate commit activity into actual news posts with the ability to rattle the tin can. 09:37 < xiphmont> Or rather, used it in bursts. 09:37 < jack> oggtraffic has the benefit of having some preparation and polish, which news items genearlly don't have. 09:37 < rillian> jack, I'd use it if I had any idea how to post things :) 09:37 < jack> rillian: you had an idea at one time. you all did. 09:37 < adiabatic> rillian: I'm working on documentation for our new news system. 09:37 < jack> i wrote a whole interface for this. 09:38 < jack> i was disappointed it never got used. 09:38 < volsung> I can see that. So who owns OT now? 09:38 < Arc> I do 09:38 < jack> i dunno. i'm also a little upset that meeting minutes stopped happening. 09:38 < Arc> and I just recently learned how to compile ReST for the web 09:38 < Arc> I just haven't dedicated a day to "catching up" with a OT release 09:39 < adiabatic> jack: I might have used it if you let me know about it. 09:39 < Arc> I tried forming an editorial group around OT, to decentralize the task so multiple people could share the workload, but that didnt work 09:39 < rillian> so sounds like we have consensus for both 09:39 < adiabatic> Both...? 09:39 < rillian> (and I agree the meeting minutes were nice. do we have a new volunteer?) 09:39 < jack> you have an account dumbass :) 09:39 < jack> so you did know about it. 09:39 < jack> ralph didn't. 09:40 < jack> carsten and manuel also had accounts. 09:40 < adiabatic> On vorbis.com? 09:40 < jack> yes 09:41 < Arc> now what's happening to vorbis.com post change, adiabatic? 09:41 < adiabatic> It will consist entirely of HTTP Redirect Permanent codes. 09:41 < Arc> i mean with the codebase 09:42 < Arc> where is the news going to go 09:42 < adiabatic> /news/ 09:42 < Arc> so people are going to have to click to view it? 09:42 < adiabatic> Not if I can help it. 09:43 < vanguardist> (ugh, gotta go. busy morning) 09:43 < Arc> so there's going to be a rotating news content section on the frontpage of xiph.org, like vorbis.com has now 09:43 < rillian> vanguardist, thanks for comiong 09:43 < rillian> coming 09:43 < adiabatic> Arc: Right. 09:43 < Arc> cool 09:43 < adiabatic> Plus the smells-like-a-blog news archives. 09:43 < adiabatic> http://io.cyclooctane.com/news/2004/ 09:44 < rillian> Ok, I think that's everything on the agenda 09:44 < rillian> any general questions? 09:44 < illiminable> Can we discuss the file extension ? 09:44 < adiabatic> Yes. Let's. 09:44 < rillian> ugh 09:44 < rillian> illiminable, you do know this is an ancient flamewar? 09:44 < xiphmont> Well, I added one thing. 09:44 < illiminable> No 09:44 < illiminable> But i know why it would be :) 09:45 < xiphmont> "I prereleased the Postfish. Flame on. I mean, rock on." 09:45 < Yen> hehe, I use .ogg for Ogg Vorbis files, .flac for flac fiels and .spx for speex 09:45 < jack> we can't discuss this in 15 minutes. 09:45 < Yen> files* 09:45 < jack> so i motion to adjourn 09:45 < xiphmont> illiminable: that is the oldest, most drug-out argumetn int he history of the .org. 09:45 < rillian> agreed. seconded. 09:45 < illiminable> I've taken to .vorb.ogg .spx.ogg etc 09:45 < rillian> illiminable, keep it on the lists, I guess 09:45 < jack> put it on next month's agenda. 09:45 < ozone> i third it 09:45 < adiabatic> illiminable: Put it on next month's agenda. 09:45 < xiphmont> better idea. 09:45 < illiminable> Sure... 09:45 * rillian bangs the gavel 09:46 < segher> yay 09:46 < rillian> this MonthlyMeeting is adjourned 09:46 < adiabatic> illiminable: That won't help. 09:46 < rillian> thanks everyone for coming 09:46 < segher> someone warn me before next month 09:46 < segher> i want to watch the flames :_) 09:46 < Arc> next month is regular time right? 09:46 < illiminable> i know it doesn't help windows... but it helps me to know at a glance 09:46 < adiabatic> No, we have the other regular time. 09:46 < rillian> Next meeting is 23:59 July 2 09:46 < xiphmont> we're alternating now, next month s evening 09:46 < rillian> er, July 7, sorry 09:46 < rillian> Thanks everyone for coming 09:46 < Arc> yea thats what i ment 09:46 < Yen> rillian, time zone? 09:46 < adiabatic> Yen: UTC. 09:47 < Yen> k 09:47 < rillian> Yen, 23:59 GMT 09:47 -!- jack [~jack@i.cantcode.com] has left #xiphmeet [] 09:47 < rillian> we now return you to informal discussion 09:47 -!- ozone [~pan068@c211-30-78-105.belrs2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has left #xiphmeet [] --- Log closed Wed Jun 02 09:47:16 2004